MCH Bridges: The Official AMCHP Podcast

Episode #22: Black Trans Joy: Childbirth & Medicine

• AMCHP • Episode 22

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Guest Speakers:   

  • Allyn Cropper, (he/him), Executive Director of My Brother Too, retired service member 
  • Eve Lovelace-Cropper, (she/her) 

Guest Host: 

  • Dorcas A., (they/them), AMCHP Youth Voice Amplified Committee Member, DotDash Anti-Bias Review Board Member 

November is Transgender Awareness Month. Tune in to the latest episode of What The Health?! Black Trans Joy: Childbirth & Medicine, a special feature led by AMCHP’s Youth Voice Amplified Committee, presented by MCH Bridges. Guest Host Dorcas A. guides us through a powerful conversation with Allyn Cropper and Eve Lovelace-Cropper, a Black trans couple sharing their experiences of navigating the journey of pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting. 

In this episode, Allyn reflects on his personal experience of pregnancy and childbirth, sharing the joys, challenges, and complexities of giving birth as a transmasculine man. Eve, his wife, also offers her perspective on their shared journey and her experiences as a transwoman embarking upon parenthood. The couple discusses the support and strategies that helped them navigate the healthcare system and their advice for other trans people interested in starting a family. 

This conversation invites listeners to reflect on the importance of joy, community, and affirming spaces for trans people in the healthcare system. It offers valuable lessons for those in the maternal and child health field, challenging us all to advocate for more inclusive and equitable reproductive care — especially for those who exist at the intersection of gender and racial identities. 

Resources:  

Nia: [00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining us for this episode of MCH Bridges, the official podcast [00:00:15] of the Association of Maternal and Child Health Programs. also known as AMCHP. MCH Bridges aims to lift up stories and people from the MCH field by centering community voice and those with lived experiences. [00:00:30] AMCHP hopes that MCH Bridges will help our listeners create new connections and ideas.

as well as inspire and guide actions that will improve the systems of care that serve our MCH communities.[00:00:45] 

For this episode, we're excited to bring you another installment of What the Health, a podcast created and hosted by AMCHP Youth Voices Amplified [00:01:00] Committee. This episode features an engaging and informative discussion between Alan Cropper and his wife, Eve Lovelace Cropper, who you'll be introduced to in the episode, and Dorcas Adedoja, YBA's new committee chair, [00:01:15] representing from the state of New York.

Dorcas has primarily worked in reproductive health informatics and adolescent community based participatory research. Dorcas is proud to be part of YVA because of the unique way it connects youth to the public health [00:01:30] professionals who serve them. As a Black and trans identifying person, Dorcas recognized Black trans joy, and Pregnancy and Parenting for Trans Identifying Folks as important topics to be uplifted on this installment of [00:01:45] What the Health.

November is Transgender Awareness Month and marks a time to celebrate, honor, and stand up for the trans community that includes our transgender, non binary, and gender diverse friends. family, and neighbors. This month is a [00:02:00] time to raise awareness, foster understanding, and celebrate the trans community's rich tapestry of experiences.

which includes experiences of pregnancy and parenting like many others in the larger MCH community. [00:02:15] As part of AMCHP's commitment to our core values of growth, impact, diversity, inclusion, honoring voices, and compassion, MCH Bridges is proud to platform emerging issues [00:02:30] identified by YVA.

Dorcas: Thank you for joining us today on the Youth Voice Amplified What the Health podcast from AMCHP. Today, we're here with [00:02:45] Alan Cropper and his wife, Eve Lovelace Cropper. Alan is a retired service member with over a decade of service experience. And he is also the executive director of My Brother Too, which is a nonprofit organization with a [00:03:00] mission.

to create visibility, provide education on life and safety skills, and effectively advocate for the needs of transmasculine individuals in a constructive manner. And it is also an organization dedicated to establishing safe spaces and support networks for the [00:03:15] entire trans community. Allen has also been recognized through fellowships, including the Crystal LaBeija Fellowship and the first Human Rights Campaign Activate Fellowship.

The trans man dedicated NMAC block Program. [00:03:30] Alan and Eve are joining us from Louisiana and just welcome a beautiful newborn named Avery. We're so excited to speak to them today about the process of childbirth, especially as it relates to being a trans [00:03:45] couple and being black. First question for Alan is how do you believe health and medical supports for trans men and trans vascular people could be improved?

And once again, we, we are, I just want to reiterate over and over again, how appreciative [00:04:00] we are of your vulnerability and willingness to share. 

Allyn: Well, representation, as we know, is the first step to including anyone into anything. So there needs to be some type of representation. If you say that you're [00:04:15] inclusive, then that needs to be represented in your spaces.

So one thing I can say is. Of course, I went to OBGYN, and so most of the people in there were women. There's been times in the past when I had to [00:04:30] go to the OBGYN for a pap smear or something. And, I mean, the entire room was pink. But if you say that you're inclusive, show that you're inclusive. So that matters.

Also, [00:04:45] language. Language matters. I didn't add in before. I forgot. Um, they did, our, our doctor on our first meeting, she asked us how me and my, my fiance at the time, not just my wife, how would we like to be [00:05:00] referred? And so they gave us an option. She didn't assume that we were just going to be parent one, parent two, or mom and dad.

She gives us an option to use the proper language and she used it and there were no [00:05:15] mistakes. And if, if your team does make a mistake, I would say to medical providers then correct it and move on. Don't dwell on it. Just like with any other [00:05:30] issue that happens in trans care overall. But there needs to be inclusive areas, inclusive language in spaces where trans [00:05:45] masculine people will get care because then they'll feel more likely to come and get care. 

Dorcas: Yes, Alan. That's so true. What advice would you give to trans men and trans masculine people interested in childbirth? 

Allyn: I think the first thing that I [00:06:00] would advise is to have a plan and not so much as have a plan to stick to, but have a guideline to go by and understand.

why you're doing this, and who you're doing it for. [00:06:15] Make sure you're doing it for the right person and the right reasons, and have a team. Make sure you have someone that's gonna back you up, whomever it may be. Make sure you have a support system. Make sure you advocate, and you're ready to [00:06:30] have people that, you know, will advocate for you as well when you can't advocate for yourself because there will be times when you may be overwhelmed and you can't advocate for yourself.

So have some people that's in your corner because they matter during this process. 

Dorcas: What are [00:06:45] routine tasks that trans men, trans masculine people who are interested in bringing life into the world should be getting? 

Allyn: Oftentimes we're told as trans people that after hormone replacement therapy we become, uh, 

Eve: Sterile.

Allyn: [00:07:00] Sterile. Which is clearly not true, um, cause I've been transitioning for over, what, 11, 12 years on T and I was just as fertile. So[00:07:15] 

Eve: As a 20 something year old. 

Allyn: Yeah, I had fertility, I had fertility, uh, um, when I started T. 

Eve: It's like it froze his eggs in time. Mm hmm. 

Allyn:Yeah, so like my eggs [00:07:30] and my fertility seemed like it was frozen in time.

Eve: Mm hmm.

Allyn: What's What's that? That's That may not be for everyone, right? But that's my story. Um, it's not, it's [00:07:45] not impossible, right?

It's not, it's not impossible. We are able, no matter if we've been on a home or placement therapy, to have kids, um, also, but I did go through a lot of tests, so that's, that's, On [00:08:00] the flip side, that's just as important for the guys to go and make sure you're checking on your fertility. I've checked on my fertility about every five years.

So just have a simple test and keep it up with your pastors. [00:08:15] 

Dorcas: Could you also tell us what some of the most joyful moments of your pregnancy were? I think overall it was 

Allyn: just an experience in itself. From the very start, from the positive test, to seeing his heartbeat, [00:08:30] to him just moving and growing. It was very stressful, but rewarding at the same time, which is weird.

However, just relearning. I relearned my [00:08:45] body. and then learning someone else. He's his own person. He's been his own person from conception, but seeing him on an ultrasound and seeing his expressions and seeing him grow was joyful [00:09:00] in itself. It's just a joyful experience. Um, don't get me wrong. It does have its down parts of it, but it's just a joyful experience.

Overall, the good outweighs the bad. It was a [00:09:15] bonding experience in itself going through the process because we both had to be patient and our bodies, we had to wait for our bodies to respond. That's really what it comes down to. You have to be patient. This is a long haul [00:09:30] game. Having a baby is not an overnight thing from the beginning to the end.

So I guess having someone there that understood me without me having to say anything. So yeah, my bad. [00:09:45] So I, I am grateful for her and I know this would, it would never have been a thing without her because that's one thing that has held me back. I think all these years, because now I am 35 [00:10:00] and I've always wanted a child.

I've raised other people's kids, but. I was held back because I didn't, I didn't feel as, I was afraid to do it myself, by myself, and I was, and now I was [00:10:15] going to do it by myself, however, she came along, and I'm grateful because I don't think I could have done it by myself. It is hard. It is hard work. And my hat's off to those single parents out there because I, I couldn't have done it by [00:10:30] myself.

Dorcas: Thank you for that answer. A lot of what you mentioned is incredibly important. I would love to learn about what providers did that was helpful and or affirming during and after your pregnancy. This is a really important question, especially you being a Black trans man. [00:10:45] And I'm sure a lot of providers who are listening in would love to hear from you.

Allyn: My team was exceptional. My providers, they asked questions. They didn't assume anything. They asked questions from the very beginning and they made sure I was [00:11:00] comfortable. Yeah, that was the biggest thing is that they, even though they are professionals, they didn't assume that they knew everything. And they made sure to let me know that they were learning just like I was.

and that they were here for me throughout [00:11:15] the whole process before, during, after they were in my corner. And I appreciated that a lot because sometimes when people assume things, a lot of things could be missed. So the questioning and [00:11:30] the constant inclusion in everything that they did in regards to my body, made me feel the most comfortable.

I think that was their greatest asset as a team. I didn't feel as though I, I was forced [00:11:45] into doing anything because I always had to say so. 

Dorcas: Oh, that's beautiful. That's very beautiful. Thanks so much, Alan. It was great to hear from you. And we would also love to hear from your wife, Eve, and about her [00:12:00] perspective about her favorite part, building a family with a trans partner.

Eve: So the experience. You know, doing IVF and then kind [00:12:15] of being the, I don't want to say like a token couple, but I guess we kind of were because it was just like, you know, of course, you know, uh, couples go in all the time for that [00:12:30] process. However, just to see us, I think was kind of a surprise. Um, even though I know that they've done the same thing before, I think we were kind of the anomaly, so in my opinion, I think we got special treatment with [00:12:45] that, but then also, it was just a lot of barriers as far as, for me, and I know for Alan as well, some of the experiences were a lot of more for the binary, [00:13:00] including all the way down to the paperwork.

It was more so, like, my process was basically more for a quote unquote a man, and all the paperwork said as such. It wasn't [00:13:15] like birthing person or birthing parent and, you know, donor. Just donor, not like all the other, uh, cis male words that they use. [00:13:30] So I think that was kind of, um, that was surprising that even for as many times that they've done this process with other people that they still have not updated those type of antiquated ways.

So I think that made me feel [00:13:45] not even really seen in my transition. It still made me feel like the quote unquote masculine partner. It didn't make me feel like the mom or the woman in the process. Um, and I can't speak for Alan, but I think, you know, on [00:14:00] the flip, the same goes for him as well. Um, so I think the blessing was that it was just a one time experience.

We got pregnant on the first try and then that was it. And here we have Avery. And then later [00:14:15] on with the legalities of just having Avery be ours, you know, there is no question that he belongs to both of us. But, you know, the challenging part about being in [00:14:30] Louisiana is the fact that their ways are antiquated as well.

Here, it's almost been like red tape and like brick walls up everywhere. Um, the process of like getting his birth [00:14:45] certificate and then wanting to use my dead name instead of my legally changed name, um, on his birth certificate, that was challenge number one. And the only thing that saved us is the fact that Alan and I got [00:15:00] married.

So had we not gotten married and that name been on the marriage license. They would have put my dead name on it, which would have made it more difficult for any type of [00:15:15] parental things that I'd have to do with Avery because I'd always have to go back and show paperwork and documents to say that I'm actually who I say I am.

So, I think that's another part of this that really wasn't expecting. [00:15:30] Um, there really wasn't explained. And honestly, I don't think that, you know, we as a community, the ones that do have children, um, don't really talk about. Um, and sometimes I think [00:15:45] we, for the sake of not upsetting the apple cart, we kind of just go with it.

We're like, whatever they say and just give me my baby and it's going to be fine. When at the end of the day, it's not. [00:16:00] Um, you kind of have to, I mean, I hate to say this, but you have to go head to head. You have to cuss people out. You have to like, just put your foot down and say, Hey, I'm not going to accept this.

And you're going to have to change this. So I think [00:16:15] even in that, in this moment, like I said, with our marriage kind of saving that, it's still, um, for me in my mind when it was happening was kind of like the catalyst to say, okay, this is going to be a [00:16:30] problem for somebody else in the future who lives in Louisiana, who is a T4T couple, who is trying to bring their own child into the world.

And when the child does get here, the kind of challenges that they will face. Um, [00:16:45] so for me, outside of fulfilling like a lifelong wish of becoming a parent, um, the reality is, is that we still live in a very, uh, [00:17:00] cruel world, uh, a very binary world as well. We know how to ebb and flow between the two, the two things, because we've been the two things.

We are the two things. But as far [00:17:15] as, um, literally just the rest of the world and just people that don't really understand and just choose to remain, um, ignorant to things that actually really do go on [00:17:30] with trans folks, you know, it just makes it incredibly hard for us to do the things that everybody else would do for their children.

So, you know, that's That's been my experience.

Nia: Dorcas continues [00:17:45] here and asks Allen and Eve about advice for other trans people interested in starting a family. 

Eve: For me, when I started my transition, like, it's 2024, I started four years ago. Literally the first year of the pandemic, [00:18:00] you know, I took a trip, came home and was like, you know what, I'm over it.

I can't do this anymore. I just literally dove headfirst into my transition. And it was about a year, maybe not even a year in, [00:18:15] but I started kind of wondering if I should, uh, free sperm or do I want a family, even though I've always said I wanted children. It's just, I was kind of [00:18:30] settling into the fact that maybe I'd just be a fabulous auntie and live my days and do me and spoil kids that are not mine.

Um, but then after meeting Allen and doing some research and finding like, Oh, I just have to come [00:18:45] off my, my estrogen for a while. And then maybe I can regain some motility. Like I didn't, I didn't know that. I didn't know that option was available for me. Um, I would say this particularly to young, to young people that are transitioning, [00:19:00] um, take your time and honestly do some soul searching because.

Everybody is so influenced by social media and especially the gram and especially TikTok and how the girls look. [00:19:15] And a lot of them want that look. They want that look. They want to hurry up and get that look. And then you turn around like, Hey, like me, I'm 40. You turn around and you're like, Oh shoot. I think I may have wanted a kid, [00:19:30] but that really wasn't at the forefront of my mind.

You know what I mean? So, um, I think that even in the process of taking the first steps, when you are in therapy, or [00:19:45] when you're speaking with your physician, I think not only does the physician need to be well versed in what, um, it takes for a person to actually come to that point in their life, they also need to be versed in, hey, there may be some decisions that you want to make [00:20:00] later on.

Let's have a conversation about that, because at the end of the day, it's going to be about your mental health as well. But the thing is, is that it can't happen. Like you can actually have both. You can have your cake and eat it too. You can be trans and be a parent. And that's just the bottom line. You [00:20:15] can do that if you want to.

Dorcas: I hear you Eve. And thank you just for being so transparent. Could you please tell us? ways you think health and medical providers could be more supportive of trans [00:20:30] women and trans feminine people who are going through the process of bringing a child into the world and just in general how they could be more supportive of the community as it relates to trans women and trans feminine people.

Eve: Honestly, if, [00:20:45] if we're telling you who we are at the onset, there should be no question from any other staff. It's like, once you're informed, y'all should be informed. The whole staff should be informed, period. Um, I think, and then the other thing when we were in the hospital, it [00:21:00] was, oh, well, who was who? Do you want to be called?

I, I'm sorry. And I, I'm not saying this because people are non binary everywhere, but if I'm telling you that I am the baby's [00:21:15] mom and although he delivered, that's the baby's father, that's it. Like, there should be no more questions that should happen because now you're misgendering me, you're making us uncomfortable, and it's just a whole to [00:21:30] do when it doesn't have to be.

Um, and also just in general, like, if I'm presenting something to you and it's, and what I'm presenting is on a binary to you, why don't you just go with that [00:21:45] instead of looking at paperwork? Because I don't care what my paperwork says, what if I look like to you? What am I presenting to you? What am I telling you I am?

What am I showing you? In this moment, I think that doctors need to just [00:22:00] be a little bit more observant. I mean, thank God we had a fabulous, uh, OB. We had a fabulous team and everybody was extremely respectful, but it was definitely felt when we were not in their care and we [00:22:15] were in someone else's care.

So prime example is Social worker. Now, I know we're talking about medical, but also social work, because that's a thing too. Because that's another piece that goes with having a child. Um, is [00:22:30] so, is, is that mom? Talking about Alan. Do he look like the boy's mama? Who? Do I look like the boy's mama? Yes! It's kind of like, you're, okay, [00:22:45] you're trying so hard not to offend that you just completely get it all wrong.

And everybody's disappointed at the end of the day. Thanks so much. So I just think that healthcare providers in general, just be more observant and more aware and [00:23:00] legitimately just sensitive, more sensitive to what people are experiencing. And honestly, like I'm coming to you with my child and my family, we are completely [00:23:15] vulnerable, already stripped to the white meat, you know what I mean?

Like you are getting me at my rawest moment. And sensitivity is, would be helpful, be key. So [00:23:30] sensitivity training and sensitivity training, all the things, like all that stuff, you know, that, that's my takeaway. from what I've experienced. We also really got to understand that everybody's just not there and that they don't have a trans [00:23:45] person in their life.

They don't have a non binary person in their life. So they really don't know how to navigate certain spaces too. So I think we also had to be sensitive as well as them to kind of come to some kind of middle [00:24:00] ground. What did you say, baby? 

Allyn: I was gonna say, also, I could start off something. They, they have to choose to see us.

A lot of times that's just what she was saying. [00:24:15] We tell you who we are. Beliefs. Stop questioning me on who I am. You have to choose to see. Yeah. And that's part of the, that's part of the equation. Like I said, [00:24:30] our team was amazing from the start because they chose to be. They chose to see us. And it was never a question like we went through a fertility clinic.

Amazing. And they handed us [00:24:45] off to our OB. 

Dorcas: Amazing. 

Allyn: Amazing. So they gave us a little bit of more care. They just chose to go a little bit further, which [00:25:00] honestly wasn't even a lot. It was like a message. But that one, that one action, that one extra step, um, took care of us in the long run. 

Dorcas: Heard. Heard. And [00:25:15] thank you both.

And I, I appreciate you both chiming in, um, on, on that answer too. It's nice to just get the collective response or the couple response, if you will. Awesome. Uh, thank you for that. I'm just curious. Please tell us how you found a fertility [00:25:30] clinic, um, that you used and, and just walk us through the process of deciding or just of laying out what the deciding factors were.

as it relates to the facility you ended up choosing, right? Just in general, like, why did you choose that facility? I'm [00:25:45] sure listeners who are trans and interested in going through the process of childbirth would love to hear from you both about how you came to decisions about what facilities you would go to and use and which facilities were most beneficial to you.

Allyn: Honestly, [00:26:00] it was only two options, and I went to both of their websites. And their website was just more professional. And that's the reason I chose them. It was nothing special. I didn't know anything about them [00:26:15] before I went to them. But, their website was 

Eve: more updated, and that's why I went. Only to find out that we had friends that also went through them as well, and had a positive experience with their staff too, so.[00:26:30] 

But these, this is a lesbian couple. but still a positive experience nonetheless. 

Allyn: When I got in there, my experience was positive. From walking, from first experience, from [00:26:45] the first person at the front desk, it was a positive experience. 

Eve: No misgendering of any kind. Everybody was extremely respectful. Um. No staring.

Even, even in, in the process of me having to donate, like, [00:27:00] I even became friendly with the staff that was on that side of the facility too. Um, so they, even though I wasn't comfortable with the experience, they were, they were making me feel comfortable. So it was nothing to do with them. Um, and then I [00:27:15] said, like, we knew when we were not in care, because even when speaking with the state about the birth certificate situation, you know, the woman on the line had the audacity to tell Alan that, [00:27:30] so, oh, quote, end quotes.

Um, so you were a woman when you gave birth. No, literally everything like in all the things. No, I was myself so that we [00:27:45] don't switch genders just to like perform a function. That's, that's, that is not how that works. So just, just in general of the type of things that we've heard said to us, [00:28:00] um, in comparison to the actual, our actual care team, um, you could just, it was obvious.

Yes. that we were just not in care. 

Dorcas: Wow. It's so awesome to [00:28:15] hear that you both had a good experience and I'm happy that you were able to find stuff that were affirming and do in, in spite of some of the barriers that came up. So that's really great to hear that it is possible to go through the process of childbirth as a black trans couple in the [00:28:30] South and have a positive experience and, and an affirming one.

So that's definitely a cause for celebration. It would be great to have some perspective on. where you feel the support gaps [00:28:45] are, Eve. Um, as it relates to supporting trans couples through this process of childbirth. 

Eve: I wish that people were more empathetic to [00:29:00] seahorse dads. Like the same type of doting that happens for cis women when they carry.

Dorcas: Yes, and for listeners who don't know, seahorse dads, [00:29:15] that just means a trans man or transmasculine person who is going through the process of childbirth. That's kind of a community term that people use. And it's used because seahorses that are, you know, male actually conceive and have babies and give [00:29:30] birth.

So, it's just a nice way to show this concept is not exclusive to the human species. There are other species that also have males who give birth.

Eve: I think that the same thing, not just the partner, but I just [00:29:45] think that the reality of somebody still having a womb and still being able to hold life, you should just be a little bit more caring instead of just seeing them as, I don't know, like a larger [00:30:00] man. You know what I mean? Even though some of them do not want to put their pregnancy on blast or anything like that, I think that it just needs to be, they need softness during that time. Let's just call it what it is. They need gentility [00:30:15] during that time. Um, and they need checking on because it's, it's hard. It's just a hard process. 

And then for all my moms.[00:30:30] All my moms like me, how are you? Are you okay? Um, what do you need help with? What do you need to talk about? I think that needs to be touched on more. [00:30:45] Softness, softness for the fellas, and, uh, concern for the moms. 

Allyn: I think for me, um, community matters, [00:31:00] right? It's hard to do this alone, 

Eve: even though we have each other.

Allyn: Community matters. Like having a circle of friends, of people outside of your relationship, around you, it matters. Check on your friends. [00:31:15] Check on your pregnant friends, no matter what they look like. your parents, you know, the parents, um, both of them, because, um, my friends [00:31:30] showed up for me, my friends that don't have kids, they showed up and them showing up made a world of difference.

Dorcas: Thank you both for sharing your story and for being so transparent. We understand it's a [00:31:45] deeply personal process and you're being incredibly vulnerable right now and trusting us with your story. We know that this will be so useful and beneficial for reproductive health at large, for providers and advocates who want to do a better [00:32:00] job to support Black and trans communities, and it's also hopefully a timeshare for you and your family.

You know, maybe once Avery gets older, this audio can be there, and it's just a great, story of how your family came to be. So thank you [00:32:15] so much and have a great one. And thank you to all the listeners out there for tuning in.

Nia: Thank you all for joining us for this episode of MCH [00:32:30] Bridges. We kindly ask that you take a few minutes to fill out a quick feedback survey to let us know what MCH related topics you're interested in hearing about and who you want to hear from in future episodes. A link to [00:32:45] that podcast feedback survey, as well as the transcript of this episode, can be found at www.mchbridges.org. Be sure to also follow AMCHP on social media and subscribe to our [00:33:00] newsletters. We hope this episode created some new connections for you. Be well. And we hope our paths cross on the next episode of MCH Bridges.

This project is [00:33:15] supported by the Health Resources and Services Administration of the U. S. Department of Health and Human Services as part of an award totaling 1, 963, 039 with 0 percent finance. with non governmental [00:33:30] sources. This information, content, and conclusions are those of the author and should not be construed as the official position or policy of, nor should any endorsements be inferred by HRSA, [00:33:45] HHS, or the U.S. government.